Is electric really the answer?

[DarrylV8]

On 21/09/2023 at 17:40, DarrylV8 said:

We go through Southampton docks pretty regular and we assume Southampton is the main UK port for Tesla cars, not sure if there are any TLF members who work at the port who can confirm; there are at least 1000 Tesla’s sat in a compound some distance from where we used to see them this figure might be way off as (we used to see) Tesla’s parked up near the Tesla building so there may be two compounds 

We are back in Southampton in a week, but suspect there are between 1000 - 5000 Tesla’s in storage 

[eeyoreish]

I was chatting to my car transporter chap a couple of weeks ago. His commercial vehicle supplier/dealer have been trialling a full EV LWB Iveco van, which had thrown up a few problems…

Cost was £70k compared to £40k for a diesel version

Range of only something like 170 miles

Motorway services are not set up for van charging. Apparently they stopped to charge it and because of the size of the car charging bays they were asked to leave by the site manager because they were blocking all the bays!

Seems there’s some way to go before we’re really ready for everyone to have an EV.

[C8RKH]

6 hours ago, eeyoreish said:

Motorway services are not set up for van charging. Apparently they stopped to charge it and because of the size of the car charging bays they were asked to leave by the site manager because they were blocking all the bays!

Seems there’s some way to go before we’re really ready for everyone to have an EV.

I can do something about that problem!  

One of my current projects is actually all about DC fast charging for commercial vehicles and I work with a Global Energy Services Company, a Global Energy Company and local contractors to identify suitable sites, both public and private (e.g. haulage yards, transportation depots etc.) where we then take care of the design, build and run of the charging stations, including monitoring usage and the equipment for issues. We can do all this whilst also providing the funding where applicable, so the site owner doesn't even have to pay for the work! If the site is big enough, as we have access to an IDNO we can arrange the grid connection, supply a microgrid and then plug into that PV and a wind turbine for generation, and battery for storage. Howzat, as they say...

There's no profit in home installs, so whilst we can do them, we rarely bother to respond or bid if they are just the standard type chargers.

[ramjet]

Actually, it was a Renault Kangoo. Not a VW Caddy. My apologies to VW.

[pete]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66889029 cant see how this is going to help ev sales

[C8RKH]

Yet more complete and utter bullshit bias from the BBC labelling this as "Brexit" rules. F@@king muppets. Iirc this is EU legislation that we are being compelled to comply with and without Brexit we'd still have to comply, so, therefore, it is naff all to do with Brexit but let's put a "Brexit" tag on it anyway. Unbelievable that after all these years this miss-information is still being peddled by our national broadcaster!

If it wasn't for the fact that my wife would rip my balls off with a blunt rust knife because she wouldn't be able to watch Strictly, I'd be cancelling my TV licence over this tosh.

[madmax]

Hmm, same here ref licence - partner only keeps the damned Beeb licence so she can watch Strictly! And they have a specialist dis and misinformation department when they're spouting it most of the time.

Sorry, makes me cross - back on topic - I like the idea of electric vehicles for certain applications and was thinking of adding a used BMW i3 to my fleet (with Rex option just in case) but I just cant make it stack up for all manner of reasons.

I only have access to electric vi a 3 pin plug and cannot alter my tariff to accommodate off peak cheap units, I have a worry that the range is not suitable (hence the Rex option) and values appear to be falling hugely with continued problems with infrastructure and the price of public charging.

It just doesn't feel like the world is ready yet, and with all the negative press about mining rare and precious minerals, it just seems wrong......................

[MPx]

6 hours ago, madmax said:

I like the idea of electric vehicles for certain applications and was thinking of adding a used BMW i3 to my fleet (with Rex option just in case) but I just cant make it stack up for all manner of reasons.

First part of your sentence gives you your own answer.  i3 is a brill car as part of "a fleet".  For us, vast majority of journeys are <10 miles round trip (there and back to each of the three nearest village/towns - so ideal for that.  Also ideal for anything shorter where petrol/diesel never warms up and gets into all kinds of trouble if you do it often. Anything over 30 mins is nicer in the Rangey anyway - so right car for the job.  Max journey it does is 45 miles each way to F's sister's.   Therefore we never public charge - we have a few times just to try it and its pants.  Also the i3 in particular has clever battery management software so you don't need to worry about only charging to 80% and don't worry about degredation.  We use a 3 pin plug (new one put in specifically for it) and it charges from ~50% to 100% overnight without any trouble - cheap if you're on economy 7 or similar, but not too bad on full price.

I would caution against a REX though.  If you need the range you need a different car.  And the REX is the bit that seems to cause any poor reliability that some, particularly early ones, pick up.  The car is lighter and faster without it.

[Kimbers]

On 25/09/2023 at 10:40, madmax said:

I only have access to electric vi a 3 pin plug and cannot alter my tariff to accommodate off peak cheap units, I have a worry that the range is not suitable (hence the Rex option) and values appear to be falling hugely with continued problems with infrastructure and the price of public charging.

It just doesn't feel like the world is ready yet, and with all the negative press about mining rare and precious minerals, it just seems wrong......................

I 3 din plug charge my PHEV. It has a 42 mile range and It costs me about half the price of a gallon of fuel to do those miles but only because I have a 3 din plug charger, I rarely have to put any fuel in it unless I have a longer journey. I have done 5500 miles in 6 months and my average fuel economy is well over 170 miles per gallon. Have you thought about a PHEV?

In terms of an i3 I would definately look at the Kia EV6 for similar money you get a lot more car, better range and charging times plus even the basic one really shifts (The GT is circa 3 secs)!

I totally agree I would have an EV as part of my cars but I would need to have my Lotus and my ICE SUV as well and the EV would be my 3rd choice drive.

If you look back you will see that a month or 2 ago I listed a Motor industry article that laid out every option for EV charging and their PPM cost of charging. This was correct as of the date of teh article. I will try and find it and repost for you.

[Kimbers]

Here you go:

Here's the highlights Anything marked "Peak" is from a garage or charging station away from home.

Charge type    Speed    Jun Ave (p/kWh)    May Ave (p/kWh)    Cost to charge to 80%    Pence per mile (p/mile)
Domestic 3 din                      34                        34                               £13.60                                      7.64
Domestic Slow Up to 7kW    44                         44                               £17.60                                      9.89
Domestic Fast  8-22kW         55                        55                               £22.00                                     12.36
Slow Peak         Up to 7kW   53                         53                               £21.20                                      11.91
Fast Off-peak    8-22kW       75                         88                               £30.00                                     16.85
Fast peak           8-22kW       79                         98                               £31.60                                     17.75
HEV (non plug)                                                                                                                                        11.00 (Based on a Toyota Prius)
PHEV                                                                                                                                                         6.00 (Based on average Electric vs Petrol use and Renault Capture PHEV)

[pete]

still dont understand why more research is put into self charging hybrids

[jep]

Because idiot governments have imposed the solution on the car industry, so they can't fully invest in alternative answers as they have to pump zillions into fully electric cars.

Bonkers. 

Justin 

[Sparky]

Day 20 in the USA; saw the first Tesla today, and have seen hardly any other EVs.

[Kimbers]

Just to say, Europe will NOT be ready for 2035. I have just spent 2 weeks + in Cyprus. And I have been talking to many new friends and some old, I made out there.

There are exactly 9 locations with working Charge points. About 40 charging points. For 1.25 million people, permanent population. Then you have 3.2 million visitors a year feeding a £77 million car rental industry. You will need to apply for a pass to use them, you can't just turn up and charge.

Now. You do the math. With 2 million cars in total, how many cars per charging point is that?

Add in the fact that of the 2 I saw One had been hacked by a next door industry to feed their electricity and the other was broken and according to my mate had been for over a year cause "No one used it anyway".

Quote from the Europ Car Employee "There is no chance we will ever go electric, we have power cuts nearly every day as it is cause we don't have enough power".

The manager of our fave restaurant is from Bulgaria. There are 20 locations and 405 charging points in the whole country, for 7 million people. "No we don't have Ev's and we don't want them".

Need I go on? 

if you thought we are bad in the UK, Europe will NOT be ready before 2050. I guarantee it.

[Markindevon]

Just back from a holiday in Australia.  The whole idea of electric cars (outside of the main cities) is completely laughable.  We hired a 'mystery car' at the start of the holiday to drive out of Sydney to a horse riding place (on the Putty Road - apart from the stupid speed limits, I wish I had the Evora for that drive, great fun!) - anyway, they tried to give us an electric car which thankfully we refused.  When we got to the ranch, they were off grid and struggled to keep the place lit, never mind charging an EV... they had had several visitors stranded there who'd hoped to be able to recharge on site...

We saw maybe a dozen EVs during the 3+ weeks that we were there... almost everything was a V8 utility vehicle with serious bush capability, often with a mad max caravan in tow and a boat on the roof!  Properly petrol head country and I can't see that changing to any great extent until EVs are a great deal more practical and countries have a great deal more suitable infrastructure.

[ramjet]

I don't know the population in Geelong, but I only know of two charging points down on the foreshore. I drive a petrol Holden Rodeo, so I don't go looking for them, I'll admit.

If garages have them, it's not a garage that I have been to as I haven't seen any. Just drove up to Sydney and back recently and can't remember seeing them on that drive either. Or signs saying "Charging Point Here" or anything like that.

I can't see EVs being viable here ever.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

A few years ago our local neighbourhood plan contained details of two proposed on-street charging points and adjacent parking bays, just down the end of our road. I had forgotten all about it until a couple of months ago when the installation was finally completed and the road markings added ELECTRIC VEHICLES ONLY. 

Since then one of the two bays has simply become a long-term parking space for someone’s Renault Twingo. I have never seen an EV parked there, let alone anyone using the chargers.

[JimmytheTurbo]

My uncle recently bought a Honda hyrid. I remembered seeing the topgear man Rory saying they were the worst of both worlds as once out of electric you are lugging around motors and batteries with your pertrol engine.

I dont know enough about them but maybe that was a plug in hydrid? I think my uncles car does not plug in but gets 60mpg.

I dont know if that drops loads of motorways as you would be on your engine with little bracking to recharge?

Is that correct? How they work?

[mcdonaa]

Having two (non plug in) hybrids in the household, I would say they are in fact the best of both worlds.

They can get mid 60s mpg (sometimes more) round town...no petrol or diesel car can manage that. They can also mostly run on electric for a few miles, so silent and relaxed running, not churning out emissions around pedestrians etc.

There's also the obvious bonus that you can refill and run on petrol...so no range anxiety like you might get with a full EV. Range for our Toyotas is typically 400 miles to a tank.

The petrol engine re-engagement is flawless, and mostly unnoticeable, it handles spinning it up when you are demanding more power, or the Lithium ion battery needs recharging. You can literally forget it is a hybrid and drive it like a regular auto petrol car.

There are drawbacks...mainly the complexity of the whole drivetrain...BUT Honda and Toyota have been making these cars for about 30 years now and have sussed the tech to make it reliable. Why do you think that most Taxis are Toyota Corolla hybrids? 😉

In summary...for now I wouldn't buy an EV. The infrastructure is not ready yet. It will be one day. In the mean time for low emissions, efficiency and a compromise, hybrids are the way to go I think.

Oh, and answering your question on Motorway driving ..because of the wind resistance goes up with speed squared, hybrids loose their efficiency at speed, and have to run mostly on petrol when cruising at 70mph. However, on a recent trip to Wales, we did see over 70mpg average over a couple of hundred miles of motorway and A road driving. You would need a good diesel to achieve that.

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, JimmytheTurbo said:

I think my uncles car does not plug in but gets 60mpg

As a wannabe, aspirational, hairdresser and nail technician, I have a diesel e-class Merc cabriolet as my daily driver. It probably weighs about 2 tons (corners like it does), but is a wonderful, smooth, quiet (with the hood up) cruiser and daily driver.  Just did a 750 mile round trip from Scotland to Cheshire to see my mother. Cruise control on the motorways at a steady 70mph, Credence on Spotify. No range anxiety (it does 650-700 miles on a full tank) and just plain chilling. Average mpg for the whole trip including running my mother out for lunch, shopping, visits, was 59.4mpg. That'll do nicely! Who needs an EV and all that additional anxiety and stress.

Oh, and the current Merc e-class estate, has just been tested and declared, from an emissions (gases and particles) perspective, the cleanest car in the world, beating many a PHEV and Hybrid.

[mcdonaa]

I hate how diesels have been demonised, even though the Euro-6 compliant vehicles can often output considerably less particulates and gases than the equivalent petrol car (considerable advancements in CAT and DPF in the last decade have helped here). But they are no longer flavour of the month with anyone any more 😔

[Kimbers]

5 hours ago, mcdonaa said:

I hate how diesels have been demonised, even though the Euro-6 compliant vehicles can often output considerably less particulates and gases than the equivalent petrol car (considerable advancements in CAT and DPF in the last decade have helped here). But they are no longer flavour of the month with anyone any more 😔

The book has been decimated for them at trade level, however they still sell at similar rates to petrol as they are still popular with a portion of buyers. Namely those doing 12,000 miles a year or more, where the difference in price of diesel to petrol is outweighed by the fuel economy.

[C8RKH]

Dieselgate was all about shoddy and lazy politics and political lobbying. Much like a lot of the tosh regarding environmental campaigns and legislation.

[drdoom]

Hey @C8RKH, what 's this aspirational business chatter about? Back on topic what is observable in my town of wealthy fools are Tesla's and the latest other EV's scatting about in droves. It would surprise greatly not to see a Tesla by the time I'd travelled 2 minutes from home. To me this is just so obviously a matter of governments laying on the seed capital for industry to reinvent itself at taxpayer's expense. Tell me why I'm wrong about that.

[C8RKH]

No idea what point you're making to be honest but send me a bottle of what you've been drinking  That's like one of my posts after a couple of bottles of Rioja.